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Talk:Sin Devil Trigger
Majin Form=SDT Seeing as how Majin Form, SDT, and Perfect Devil Trigger all have the same name in japanese, shouldnt we merge the pages? They all look similar enough that i think it is clear they are the same thing. LegionZero (talk) 02:29, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :Absolutely not. They have different names in English, different origins, and work in completely different ways. It's not even particularly clear what Maijin form is supposed to be or if it's canon, given it's never been mentioned since, and for that matter wasn't even mentioned in DMC 2 itself. Besides, why would Dante make a big show of unlocking SDT if Maijin form was a thing he could do before? Evil Tim (talk) 02:40, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::Having different names in english doesnt mean much when the game is japanese and made by japanese people. Before DMC5, Dante couldnt access it unless he was about to die. It working differently in DMC5 doesnt mean its not the same thing. As far as i am aware, Majin Form didnt have an explanation of origin.LegionZero (talk) 03:46, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::So why didn't he use it against Urizen, then? Most likely because they didn't bother acknowledging it, because it's just this mechanic DMC 2 had that had no role in the story and was never explained. It could be said to replace Majin form / desperate devil trigger by giving Dante a similar power with an actual explanation behind it, but it's not the same thing at all. One of these things is an unexplained mechanic which seems to have been created just to make the game easier, one is a key plot element which is related to a Devil Arm, and the third is an abandoned concept. They're in no way "the same thing" just because they share a name, any more than the DMC 3 style called Quicksilver is the DMC 1 item called Quicksilver. :::Plus the translations are official, so "Sin Devil Trigger" carries just as much weight as "Shin Majin" as the name (unless you'd like to start calling Vergil "Bajiru"). Where does "Shin Majin" being the name for DDT mode even come from? The English manual never even mentions it, let alone naming it, and the only other time it appeared was a very odd appearance in the manga where from what I've heard Dante turns into it before the events of DMC 3 somehow. Evil Tim (talk) 04:16, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::::why didnt he use it against Urizen? He got knocked into a month long coma before he could transform. Shin Majin probably from the japanese version of the website that gave us Majin Form or f4om one of the many interviews featured in 3142GA. The translations being official doesnt change the fact that in the original language they all have the same name. Official also doesnt mean correct. "Shin majin" means "true demon form" or something along those lines, which was used to describe PDT and SDT. Bajiru is the japanese pronunciation of a non-japanese name. As it stands there is more evidence for them being the same thing than not being the same thing. LegionZero (talk) 06:11, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::No, there's no evidence for them being the same. There is not one thing in common between them: they look different, they are different mechanically, they are from different games. The name is the only thing they have in common. The fact that they use a very generic title in Japanese is no reason to lump three completely dissimilar concepts together. And I note you don't even know if DDT form actually has the name in question in Japanese, nevermind how official it is. So what we have here is trying to merge a completely unexplained game mechanic that only appears in any part of the DMC storyline in one panel of the manga that makes no sense, a key part of DMC 5's story, and some discarded concept art of super forms for Dante and Nero because of an unsourced claim that they have the same name in one particular language. :::::More to the point, do you have any source that says these forms are the same? Not just that they have the same name (which we don't have either, but hey), but that they are the same? This is the same issue as with the "god" thing from before, you're presenting evidence and saying you think it means "A is B," but what you need is evidence that actually says that A is B. Otherwise all we can say is "A is like B." Evil Tim (talk) 06:31, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::: SDT looks like a combination of PDT and Majin. They are all called the same thing in japanese. Even if they werent named the same thing they are all at least described as the same thing AND SDT would be a conceptual evolution of PDT and an evolved form/usage of Majin. Also. Just because you don't understand japanese doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. We have users here who know japanese and have pointed out these things. Maybe if you become a fluent japanese speaker/reader/writer then your opinion would hold more weight. LegionZero (talk) 07:22, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::::::: Well Dante used Majin Form also in DMC 3 Manga... So there's that. While I cannot say that they are exactly the same because Dante have to activate them in different manner, they obviously are related to each other due to name (Shin Majin and Shin Majin Modo). ::::::: The problem is that we really dont have much info about it, so merging the pages without much evidence will be a bad move. The safest bet would be asking game-devs about it (Matt gives the answer quite often) on Twitter. (No I dont have Twitter) ::::::: As of right now I dont think we should merge them, we dont have enough info. That being said.. if you were to merge the pages, I wouldnt oppose it. Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 07:28, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::::"Looks like." Not "is". No evidence of "is." "Same in Japanese?" No evidence. Show me where it's the same in Japanese if you want to assert that. Conceptual evolution certainly isn't the same thing, Ifrit, Beowulf, Gilgamesh and Balrog are conceptual evolutions. Evil Tim (talk) 07:32, April 17, 2019 (UTC) He probably refers to this: 真魔人モード Shin Majin Mōdo, lit. "True Devil mode" <- Majin form 真魔人 Shin Majin <- Sin DT form 真魔人 <- Shows up in both names. The only difference would be the end "Modo" モード and the activation process. That's why I would prefer to ask devs. They usually give answers regarding topics like this one on Twitter. Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 07:41, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :Well yeah, but where does the Japanese name of Majin Mode actually come from? From what source do we know that's the name of it? Evil Tim (talk) 07:47, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::Ifrit->Beowulf->Gilgamesh->Balrog can be seen as a conceptual evolution, but what i am talking about is the concepts/ideas/designs that devs go through before coming to the final thing. Everything in every game goes through dozens of design/conceptual ideas before reaching the final one that ends up in game. Even if PDT isnt SDT, it was one of the ideas in development that became SDT. We have a "development" section for a lot of pages and there is no reason for PDT to not be mentioned as part of SDT when they share similar aesthetics and the same name in japanese. LegionZero (talk) 08:17, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::I'd accept that Perfect Devil Trigger could be here since the concept art is very clearly related to the design of the new Devil form, especially Vergil's one, but not DDT/Majin, that's not got much of a link, has its own moveset and its own story (or lack thereof). As I noted, they could just as easily have based the aspects that are claimed to come from the DDT form from Dante's transformation into Sparda in the first game. Hell, I always used to think DDT form just was him turning into Sparda again, because of how far away DMC 2's camera is and the fact that I was playing on an SD TV back then. Evil Tim (talk) 08:23, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::::Sparda DT has nothing to do with Majin. Btw Majin is from the old DMC website. From around the time of DMC4. LegionZero (talk) 09:02, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::So it's a name that was made up half a decade after DMC 2 came out, by Capcom's Japanese PR department rather than anyone connected with making the game? That's, um, not particularly compelling. Also, having dug up the Japanese DMC 2 site with Wayback Machine, it doesn't seem to have any mention of DDT mode at all. Evil Tim (talk) 09:26, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::: Doesnt matter how long after DMC2 came out. The US site gave it the name, and IIRC, its the only name given by Capcom. LegionZero (talk) 11:56, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::::Do any of these "sites" have links? Anyone can say information exists. Where is it? You've provided no proof at all, just blank assertions that this information exists because you say it does. And there is quite a difference between it being called that in the game and it being called that on some mysterious website half a decade later by the publisher's PR department, and them apparently regarding this information as so integral to the series that they no longer even bother to keep it up. Evil Tim (talk) 12:19, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::The US DMC site doesnt work properly on the Wayback machine, i tried, but there are a few old forums where certain users were basically the DMC wiki before wiki's were a thing, and they confirmed the name and origin. Whether you like it or not it came from Capcom. You don't get to decide who within the company put out together the information on the site, nor do you get to decide the validity of the information based on whether or not the site is still up. LegionZero (talk) 12:34, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::So your evidence is "some forums" (none of which you can be bothered to link to), and a site that doesn't exist. You have nothing. And yes, I can say who put together the site. It was the publisher. That's how these things work, developers develop, publishers publish. It's cunningly hidden in their names. Publishing includes things like writing manuals and running websites. That's why DMC 2's manual includes several features that aren't in the game, such as being able to rebind the controls: devs told the publisher they thought those features would be ready for ship date, and they weren't. :::::::::And I'm amazed I have to explain this, but information which was only ever on a site that doesn't exist is not particularly valid. :::::::::With the standards of evidence you're trying to use here you could add any claim to any page. "Sparda's human name was Donald Trump, the proof is an old Japanese website that doesn't exist and some people on forums somewhere said so!" Evil Tim (talk) 12:40, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::https://www.ign.com/boards/threads/dantes-majin-form.178439024/ moving on from that argument. Capcom is publisher yes. As the publisher they have the right to do/whatever they want with the game and its content and it is valid. All of the DMC games(except DmC) were made by Capcoms in house dev team, so in this case, the publisher and developers are the same people. Since nothing contradicts the name provided by Capcom then that is the name. Majin Form has been used on the wiki since forever and a half ago when the official site was up.LegionZero (talk) 12:55, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::::Your "proof" is random internet users on a forum thread on IGN? Seriously, that's the best you've got, some anonymous nobodies in 2009 saying they think they remember it? THAT IS NOTHING. Jesus Christ. And no, the publisher and the developers are not the same people. DMC 1 was created by Team Little Devils, not the publishing arm of Capcom Japan. Evil Tim (talk) 13:00, April 17, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::::I cant give you a 1st hand source, so i gave you a second hand source corroborating my and past admins personal experience. You are basically calling myself and previous admins liars Simply because you never seen it does not make it untrue. It is not a coincidence either that the Majin form page was created around the same time that DMC4 was announced and the site containing this info was still around. Team Little Devils was a Capcom dev team. Not hard for the PR to get in contact with them. That argument is so paper thin, as if you know exactly what information they are privy to, and honestly it feels as if you are only making it as a back up in case the website itself was able to be provided. Capcom named it and haven't contradicted it. Either way i am done with this discussion. LegionZero (talk) 13:30, April 17, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::::::A forum thread is not a valid substitute for an official source. All you have there is is a source for the statement "ten years ago, some random guy on IGN said he thought Capcom used to have a site that used this name." Unsourced content is not like fine wine, it doesn't suddenly become sourced at a particular vintage. It is not sourced, it has never been sourced, and the best you can come up with is a thread which claims the website in question exists while criticising it for being shit. So even your own bad source says the imaginary source is a bad source. Great! :::::::::::::Also, have you forgotten what you were trying to prove here? Even if I were to hit my head hard enough to agree an IGN thread is valid proof of anything other than the existence of an IGN thread, how does a thread saying that the term "Majin form" was used in English prove that the Japanese term used was the same, exactly? I seem to recall someone saying that terms used in the English translation didn't count... :3 Evil Tim (talk) 13:35, April 17, 2019 (UTC) Was going to ask for admins council on same thing. I think articles Majin Form, Perfect Devil Trigger and Sin Devil Trigger should be merged, either to one article or to Devil Trigger article (which is bloated enough imo). Here's my reasoning: On Devil triggers, Devil modes and Devil forms Davidhater (talk) 20:08, April 17, 2019 (UTC) Manga panel I'm not entirely sure what the objection is. We need to explain somewhere on the page what that panel in the infobox is supposed to be. It's from the DMC 3 manga, it shows something some fans think looks like the DMC 2 Majin Form, and it's not officially confirmed if that's actually the case or not. There is no part of that that is not 100% true. Evil Tim (talk) 20:08, April 23, 2019 (UTC) :The manga has a close-up on his face and it has the same horns as DMC2 SDT. The confirmation is the art itself. LegionZero (talk) 20:16, April 23, 2019 (UTC) ::That would be your personal interpretation of the art. Like I said, there is no official confirmation, it is speculation as to what it's supposed to be. Could just as easily be off-model Sparda for all we know. Evil Tim (talk) 20:23, April 23, 2019 (UTC) :::Your argument is weak. Dante had had horns on top of his head(which Sparda never had) and clawed feet, which Sparda never had) which are features that match up with 2's SDT. I have no idea why suddenly it would be off model for these 3 panels when all the art had matched the game. Also no idea would be Sparda. We will take the art for what it is. If we needed confirmation for every single thing then half this wiki would be trivia noting speculation. LegionZero (talk) 20:42, April 23, 2019 (UTC) ::::The panel is extremely stylised overall, the "horns on top of his head" is actually a weird negative-space way of highlighting his spine, you can see that if you look further down his back. Unless you mean the second page, which looks like an oddly-drawn left horn, and is much too big to be Majin Form's second set of horns and the wrong shape, plus there's only one. Plus you're only focusing on similarities and ignoring differences, like that it's way too thin to be Majin form, has a body made of weird exposed muscles, and God only knows what's going on with its wings. It doesn't even seem to have fully formed legs in the first two panels. Evil Tim (talk) 20:49, April 23, 2019 (UTC) :::::The panel of him holding Alice is an a incomplete transformation. I am talking about the close-up of his head that is not covered in darkness. It is detailed and acccurate to DMC2's SDT face and head. LegionZero (talk) 21:09, April 23, 2019 (UTC) ::::::The next panel just shows an eye and a curved side-horn. Panel after shows it's still a weird muscle-thing. ::::::To clarify: you mean this page, right? :::::: ::::::In the panel on the right page I honestly can't even tell what I'm looking at: from the way the horn frames it it's supposed to be the left eye with the head looking...up...? But if so the curve of that horn is way off (Majin's side-horns are rather like insect mandibles, they don't start out above its eyes). If you mean the one on the third page, no, Majin Form's eyes don't have pupils and I don't think it has such a human delineation between brow and nose, either. Compare to this official DMC 2 concept art: :::::: ::::::In that panel it looks more like he's supposed to have started turning back into a human again. Evil Tim (talk) 21:13, April 23, 2019 (UTC) :::::::2nd page, its a profile of the left side of his face. It has one set of horns that sit on his head that protrude a bit over the eyes and the lower horn sweeping around his jaw/cheeks.LegionZero (talk) 21:57, April 23, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::It just looks like one continuous horn that starts at his brow and curves around. The deep shadow where it curls around wouldn't make sense unless it's the area above it coming outwards to go down. Plus the concept art and in-game model don't really allow the horns to overlap like that at that angle, and the eye's way too small and in the wrong place. Evil Tim (talk) 22:04, April 23, 2019 (UTC) I am too lazy to read through the whole conversation, but I'll just say this: I am also puzzled the hell the manga image is doing in the infobox. Sure, the similarity is uncanny, but it's not named such, it would make no sense given the timeline, and I'm not even sure if it was real transformation or just viewer's trick to show Dante's not quite human. I vote to remove it and put it in the dreaded Trivia section. Starring: DEADWEIGHT 14:43, May 2, 2019 (UTC) DMC2 infobox pic this one looks clearer, larger, and more accurate colors to me.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully! 13:18, April 24, 2019 (UTC)